No Dice

[Deleted]

Salutations, everyone. I'll introduce myself before I begin. I'm Dustin D. Doucet, hence the nick "3D". My RP experience comes from years of online play in digichat, and a fair bit of time spent doing Play By Post on the website rpgchat. I've been directed to this site by teh Shiivster, and I'm very happy to see some familiar faces getting into Play By Post as well as a lot of Palladium Books games being played.

That being said, I have two ideas and a proposal for a game putting it to use.

One idea is to play a game without the use of dice. Might seem a little hard or awkward but it can and does work, and it focuses allot more on your ability to play your character and detail what it can do. Here's how it's done; you create your character as per normal to the system that you want to play it in, I'll use Palladium as an example. Attributes should still be rolled, and skills selected as well as an OCC. However, the skills you select will never need to be rolled on, but rather they will determine what your character is able to do and be successful at. For example, anyone can try to forge a signature, but only the one with the skill will be able to get away with it if it's ever called into question. Attributes are dealt with the same way in that they determine your character's proficiency with any one trait. Same as a normal game only having an extraordinarily high attribute won't inherit a bonus to anything, instead you will role-play the attribute. An IQ of 18 wouldn't give you a bonus to your skills, but you would RP it such that you would not have to take so long to figure something out, or you wouldn't have to research something that a person with an IQ of say 12 would have to research, even though they had the skill.

This would help encourage detailed posts and role-playing aspects of the character without relying on any dice to do the talking. If the situation comes up where someone seems to be taking advantage of the free-form style, then the game/thread master can ask for the player to edit the post accordingly and give an explanation as to why.

Something like combat can be done this way too, and it would be handled in a way similar to a game of chess. One person would post their character's action, and the other character(s) involved would take turns posting their reaction to what ever is happening. Nothing could be done physically or mentally to another character without the player agreeing to it in their post but within reason. I'll give a brief example of how it would go down.

Tony wasn't happy with the way the deal was going with the stranger sitting across the table from him in the dimly lit, secluded VIP room of the club. The way he was talking, moving, looking at him, even the way he sipped his drink made his gut twist around, screaming that this was a set up. And that last comment he made had Tony's blood boiling. He wouldn't put up with the likes of this lackey anymore and he drew his heavy black energy pistol from under the table and leveled it at the man. Murderous intent was clear in his eyes, it was no threat, and his finger squeezing on the trigger was proof of that

Here you have the opening to the action sequence. All of the actions taken against the other player were attempts and nothing was set in stone. The next post would be by the character directly involved, or if more players are around then they may possibly intervene within reason, and should discuss that with the players involved in the actions first as no one would normally have a sooner reaction than the person directly involved with the conflict. And his reaction, because the player doesn't want to lose his or her character could be something like as follows:

Johnny knew from the beginning that this little meeting had all the potential in the world to end up the way it was going right now, and in hindsight, that may have been the cause for the current situation. His nervous fidgeting and the way he spoke, he honestly didn't blame Tony. But like hell he was going to die because of it. He saw Tony pull the gun up and didn't even give him a chance to aim it before he stood up and took the table with him, knocking over the drinks and ashtray, and more importantly, disrupting the aim of the overweight mobster in front of him....

As you can see, no rolls were taken place. And the player responded to the action with one of his own that prevented him dying and also canceled out the last few actions of Tony, meaning he did not get the chance to level the gun nor the chance to squeeze the trigger, so his next post would have to take that into consideration.

The way this is similar to chess is that one player moves, and the other player defends and counter-moves, taking into consideration the environment which should be fully detailed. Taking into consideration physical attributes to limit character potential (like a PS of 10 isn't going to chuck around cinder blocks and PP of 12 isn't going to be doing graceful back flips over furniture, again using the palladium system as an example) you can conclude a fight by gradually taking away the possible actions your opposing character can do. And this works even with multiple characters in the scene.

Anyway, that's my No Dice idea. If you read it all I appreciate it and would like to hear any kind of constructive criticism on it. I'll post my next idea and my game proposal next.

[Deleted]

My second idea, if the first one didn't get poor reviews, is that the role of GM be shared to a certain extent among the other players.

The traditional role of the GM is to be the role of every single NPC and create every little detail of every setting that the characters want to invite themselves into. On top of this, some NPCs need to be done with significant detail as they are important pieces to the plot, and a story that is worth while playing in needs to be created. Seeing as how it's Play By Post, this can take a long time to always wait for the GM to respond, and it can make for some very short and not very detailed posts and take away from the player's creativity.

So here's the Power to the Players idea; the story and the major NPCs remain under the GM's control, as well as any significant settings, or any part of a setting that should be significant. And the roles of minor NPCs like a waitress, store clerk, or any other random people could easily be taken up by the player. And some parts of the settings can be described by the player as well to make things easier on the GM.

Like the minor details of the booth in a restaurant that a character sits at. While the GM can tell you there is a booth, and give you an idea of the atmosphere of the restaurant, and the general layout of it, the player can focus on details such as a coffee stain on the table cloth, or the unlit candle sitting in its brass holder, or condiments on the table depending on the style of restaurant.

If anything is too far fetched, or the GM has other plans that may be accidentally ruined in the description given by the player, then he or she can send a message to the player to change their description as necessary. Easy as that.

This gives the player plenty more room to work their imagination and give detailed descriptions in the point of view of their character, so this way characters can be developed a little bit more, and other players and the GM can get a better idea of what they're working with.

And that is pretty much it for the second idea. Thankfully much shorter than the first, and like the first, any comments are appreciated. My game proposal is up next.

[Deleted]

Night Train is an idea for a game that I've been kicking around for a while now and would like to make happen via Play By Post. It takes place on Rifts Earth in the New West setting. The game itself takes place aboard one of the few old fashioned trains that runs all throughout the Colorado Baronies, going from Silvereno and running through every major town and outpost serving as a means of transportation for civilians as well as equipment and other goods.

My idea is for the characters to play as the crew for this train, and to have it be something of a neutral base that has to take care of itself, but also manages to be its own boss, under the ownership of no other. The game would be something like a mercenary campaign bearing resemblance to everyone's favorite, unfortunately short-lived, sci-fi series Firefly. But instead of the spaceship Serenity, it's a train, and instead of open space to roam around in, it's railroaded (literally). That's not to say it will be a game forced into any specific direction.

The players would be allowed characters who either work on the train or are frequent passengers or even drifters hitching a ride in a cargo car. Anything you can imagine that would be involved with such a train would be allowed. This locomotive would also be more along the lines of a cruise ship, making stops in towns that last for a day or two before moving on again, so action and story won't have to stay on board, but will inevitably be centered around the train.

There is plenty of room for plot here, both GM created and player created, as well as player interaction. The train can be the location of drama, action, adventure, romance, politics, and whatever else you can imagine. And the action can be taken off the train into the various towns it stops at.

One of the great things about it too is that it's always a reoccurring plot device. Should a player chose to follow a story into a city and the train leaves without them, they can rest assured that the train will return. Barring, of course, any plot that may involve the train being derailed or destroyed or put out of service which can be a story in itself.

That's my Night Train game idea. I'd love to GM it here on these boards and using the No Dice and Power to the Players ideas I think it could go well. If you think so too, or think not, or have another comment to make on this, like the posts before, I'd enjoy hearing about it. Thanks again for taking the time to read all of this.

[shiivster]

i have no idea what the otehrs will think, but personally, i find 'response players' to be a bigtime drag in online games.

take for example, a scene in a bar.

sally, the current arm candy of brandon the *whoknowswhat*, has been given a drink and brandon is trying to start a conversation. enter gladys, a powerlifter member of the carpool and a part-time pall of both but not one they know very well.
gladys, well into her cups is now beligerant and when a strange man whispers and gives her a proposition for a trip to heaven [or how ever else its said] reacts with the kicking of the offenders arse.
now brandon and sally sit there and watch, sally still deep in thought about somethin unknown seems to have no clue of the fught or what it was about. brandon also sits by and lets it happen, but cracks jokes the entire time.

yeah .. but the thing is
.. sally 'sits and stares off into space thinking'
.. brandon *makes wise cracks about what is happening*

kinda strange to continue wanting to game in a way that has a lot of choice there. maybe with the styly you are suggesting, this kind of thing will actually stop and real character developement will happen.
all the more power to these ideas.

[Dome]

My concern with this is, if there is no dice, how does combat work? According to what you wrote If the PC doesn't wan't something to happen to his character, nothing will. Combat could go on forever with people RPing that they have blocked or dodged everything thrown at them. That could become tedious for battles where players seem to be almost invulnerable.

JMO.

Dome

[shiivster]

well, unless you haven't watched Dakota and Juicer when they partake in their RP session, it is kinda hard to actually envision it happening. i dont know IF they will run an episode, but Dak should post a day that the two of them get going.

its educational and interesting to watch. they sorta work with the Starwars genre ... and then make it all work out right somehow. but hey, it takes an interestedmind to envision a lot of things like that.

[Deleted]

When I first tried the No Dice system on rpgchat.com I was concerned with it myself. What's to stop a player from just dodging and avoiding everything and keeping a fight or any battle going on for an unnecessarily long time. If my opponent continued to dodge everything, would I not get the mindset that my character would do the same and vice versa. My first go at this system, I was in a lot of denial over it. I couldn't imagine how it could possibly work. But thousands of members on that site have been doing it successfully for years.

My first attempt at it, I was playing as a gun toting, magic totem using, native american warrior. It was in a thread based around a dueling tournament, and my opponent was well described in her abilities and what she could do, as mine was too. There were surprises in store for both of us, but they weren't far from the concept of the characters that were originally given, and caused no problems between us as players. If something did come up that was unacceptable, we would have told each other about it, and like mature gamers, would have changed the post accordingly to prevent any problems.

When we were ready to get started, the GM put up the basic setting, a dense forested area where the trees were centuries old and stretched up high into the sky with a full, lush canopy that let little more than a few rays of sunlight make it down to the soft soil below. This basic setting is all the GM gave us, and little details like the branches, and logs on the ground and roots jutting up out of the soil were left up to us players to add to the game as we saw fit, so long as they didn't interrupt a detail that was previously described. For example, if one player describes a heavy, hollowed out, moss covered log, the other player can't say she steps on it and snaps it like a twig. Like I said, it does require reasonable and mature players, which I think this site has.

My character was overpowered by his opponent to begin with, but he was a warrior and clever with his own share of tricks up his sleeve to hopefully outwit and outdo his opponent. She was a demigod of sorts (I know, it wasn't me matching us up, but hey, it turned out fun anyway). With a lot of speed and power, as well as a couple of daggers that were indestructible (and I read the games she was in before, and it made sense how she had them). I, on the other hand, had a number of enchanted items that granted him the powers of the animals they symbolized. That and a six shooter.

When the fight started, it was her turn first, as was decided by coin flip since it was a duel. (Normal in-game fighting, the first action would obviously go to the person that acts first.) In her post, she clearly stated her description and where she was, what she was doing, and what her plans were at the moment. She was out of her element in the forest, she specified it and we both knew it, where as my character was the hunter.

My turn came next. Since my character wasn't officially introduced yet, no action could be taken upon him and I would most likely be able to get the first attack off. And I did just that. I posted that my character had been quietly stalking her like a predator to his prey. His heightened senses from his magic items allowed him to do so without being spotted and with making little noise. Here's where fair play and maturity comes in; when I went to attack I described that I had broken my silence and moved in for the kill, aiming my six shooter at her and pulling back the hammer to let it fall with a squeeze of the trigger, and repeating, letting two bullets fly from the gun toward his foe.

I did not say that my attack connected, I simply made an attempt. I described the action in such detail that my opponent could respond accordingly. She could chose to let the bullets hit and kill her, and that would be all well and good but it wouldn't be very fun. Now if dice were involved, what if I rolled a natural 20 there or she rolled a natural 1? She'd lose her character without a chance. Never mind that, it takes control away from the player.

Instead of taking the bullets and dying, she described her action in detail and defended reasonably. Her character heard the clicking of the hammer being pulled back and with cat-like reflexes she turned and was able to catch sight of me just as my shots were being fired, one after another in rapid succession. As I said before, I was outmatched to begin with, and her speed proved it as she managed to deflect the first projectile with her dagger. The second bullet, following close after the first was a different story, she was aware of it but, using good judgment and being reasonable, was unable to justify her character fully avoiding the shot and it hit her in the shoulder as she attempted to dodge, or at least avoid getting shot in any vital areas.

The battle continued like this, and since it was a duel, we detailed it a lot and prolonged the battle, making it very interesting. We had to respond each time to each other's actions, and we had to do it using common sense. The final outcome was my character laying in a bloody mess at the feet of his exhausted, beaten and bruised but victorious opponent.

For standard in game combat, it wouldn't last nearly so long as the object of a fight isn't to be victorious, but to survive. And thus one wouldn't fight to the death or even attempt it because they don't want to die themselves.

Again, for this to work, all players involved need to be mature. And if anyone appears to be abusing the system, then it would be the GM's responsibility to catch it and talk it over with the player, asking them to adjust their post accordingly.

Hope this cleared it up a little bit.

[dakota]

shiivster said:

well, unless you haven't watched Dakota and Juicer when they partake in their RP session, it is kinda hard to actually envision it happening. i dont know IF they will run an episode, but Dak should post a day that the two of them get going.

its educational and interesting to watch. they sorta work with the Starwars genre ... and then make it all work out right somehow. but hey, it takes an interestedmind to envision a lot of things like that.

yer makin' me blush...



I'll try to cut/paste a session one of days

[dakota]

I'll try to cut/paste a session one of days

Nevermind, it doesn't work...

[albatross]

No Dice,

I tend to like characters based on a system and then free form pending any disputes, but I sometimes break out roles for things that might kill a character.

Here is why: free form works great for most combat, but every once in a while it falls short. Some examples include magic and martial arts.

In magic, when the player guesses a spell intent based on a post, they take action that the character couldn't hope to make (they hold their breath knowing its a cloud of sleep and not a fireball).

With martial arts, its usually the non-martial artist who undertakes the ridiculous. For example, an Aikido master can toss an attacker over his shoulder as a defense. In free form, this requires writing the attempted grab and then the attempted throw. For some reason, the non-martial artist usually avoids having their punch grabbed (despite the fact that a split second ago they threw all their efforts into connecting the punch, which should make grabbing the punch about as hard as a marshmellow), and the fact that they somehow avoid being thrown even though Aikido is using their own momentum is fascinating.

The funniest part is that I actually learn Kung Fu, and when we practice Tai Chi, I can tell you that even though I know a move is coming and how to avoid it, Tai Chi is so unique from other forms that I shift the wrong way and get knocked down anyway. No one who has never seen Tai Chi could ever understand the move the first time, no matter how great they were. Thats why martial arts is so powerful: the moves are well planned and unique and the unprepared are, well, unprepared.

Sometimes it can be nice to say "Auto Flip Throw is a response to the punch, and not dodgeable- try pulling your punch."

-Albatross

[Deleted]

I thought this would come up eventually. Magic and Martial Arts and even psionics. They are all a little more in depth in terms of describing your move and even planning it with the other player and the GM before the post of the action takes place.

For magic, I found that you don't need to specify what spell you're casting in your post. In Palladium games, magic requires spoken words, and occasionally (to make casting easier) hand gestures and body movements just before the spell goes off. None of that needs to give away what spell you're casting. If you just send a tell to the GM stating the spell you're using, then he or she can act as a neutral referee of sorts. Perhaps if it's one caster against another, they may be familiar with the spell that's about to go off, and may provide them a bit of an advantage that a non-caster wouldn't have. If the opposing player hears the incantation often enough and sees what happens, then that player may be able to accurately guess what's coming next too.
As for holding their breath in a Cloud of Sleep spell, I would assume that the GM would want to step in and explain why that wouldn't happen. The GM may even want to re-evaluate having a player in the game that will take such advantage of the no dice policy.

This brings me to the point of Martial Arts. When a player posts their character sheet at the beginning of the game, their skills and attributes set their character's limitations and abilities. All of the players would have to take into account their own limitations and how they compare with the other players. If someone without a martial arts skill is performing feats that are beyond what their attributes and skills dictate, then it would be up to the opposing player and especially the GM to intervene via private message and get them to either change their post, or just straight up leave the game.

The only real problems with using no dice come from underestimating how reasonable your fellow players can be. If something doesn't look right in an action post, then just discuss it via PM and fix the situation appropriately. If there are any disputes, then the GM would just have to be consulted.

I find that if you can trust someone to make their own dice rolls when gaming online, be it in Play By Post or in a chat-room, without cheating so that their character comes out on top, then you should be able to trust them to make appropriate actions fitting for their character and for the situation.

I liked Shiivster's idea about a demonstration, maybe a duel or a tournament to sort of introduce No Dice in action instead of just my long-winded explanations. If anyone can throw a character together and we could have a few action posts right here in this thread with room for OOC questions and comments as the duel progresses.

Just a thought for now.

[shiivster]

*a tall hoodedshadow steps out of hte shadows and removes a leather and metal backed guantlet .. hauls back and slaps [3d's chosen char] across the cheek. 'you sir, are a swine. you have insultedme for hte last time, and i amhere to formally challenge you ... you pick the weapon and i will be there .... '

*said figure stands and waits ... the tone while female, carries with it an air of power and mystery*

......................
thus is the challenge issued to those non-believers who want an idea of what this will be about

[Deleted]

Fernandez wasn't sure what he did this time, but he didn't exactly care either. It seemed that pissing off the locals came naturally to him and this dame was just another one he'd have to deal with. She made the mistake of challenging him to a fair fight, and if the dead could speak, they'd have warned her that this wasn't a very good idea.

The man she slapped with that glove was just another saddle tramp who frequented the taverns throughout the city of Charity that stood along the Platte River between Hope and the Rockies. He had a terrible habit of making the worse kind of both friends and enemies, most of the latter, and even some of the former, he ended up leaving for dead in the wilderness or at the bottom of the river. So his arrogance wouldn't let him back down from a challenge, especially one issued by some lady.

He readily agreed to the duel, and somehow managed to hold himself back from clocking the wench as soon as her gauntlet landed on his face.

"All things in good time..."

He said to himself and smirked as he told her to be at the docks by the river for three hours past midnight. There they would duel with fists and vibro-blades of any type. His lips curled into a crooked smile as they departed, only to meet again later. He knew only one of them would be around to see the sun rise again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The docks weren't as big in Charity as they were in some of the other major cities in the baronies along the river. This was mostly because Charity was the newest city, only 76 years old, but it already had a reputation for being one of the ugliest and most destitute places in Colorado. The river at this location was much wider and deeper, having been expanded for increased shipping to this location. The docks were simple wooden constructs stretching out over the water and housing a few small boats and one big transport boat with a plank lowered for loading boxes and crates onto it.

Beyond the dock were multiple warehouses and a large parking lot and loading area, effectively separating the docks from the rest of the city by at least a couple of clicks. It was one of Fernandez' favorite spots to do whatever seedy business he had to do. Especially at this time of the morning, the docks were devoid of life. Only the sound of the water gently lapping at the shores could be heard, or the boats occasionally rocking against the dock. There were multiple nets and crates laying all over the dock, most left empty or filled with tools that weren't very expensive and not worth stealing.

Standing at one end of the dock, patiently waiting and looking down at his digital watch every so often, was the man who had been challenged to this duel. He was wearing only some meager leather garments. A pair of faded blue jeans and brown leather chaps were on top of snake skin boots, spurs and all. He wore just a black leather vest on his chest, showing off a bit of a beer belly and an awful amount of hair. He sported a goatee, and his head was shaved balled and he had many piercings in his ears and face. In his gloved hands he twirled a pair of vibro-knives lazily.

"Come on lass, the show's about to start."

He cackled with that crooked grin still painted on his face.

Edit: OOC: Before the action starts, I'd make sure that my GM would have a copy of my character sheet. It would state that this character's attributes are all average to below average. Strength and Endurance being his highest at 15 and 13 respectively. He would only have a limited amount of skill in basic hand to hand combat, as well as some training in boxing and the use of knives and a variety of modern weapons. With that in mind, should one of my posts betray those limitations, then the GM would just step in and ask to modify the post accordingly.

[shiivster]

* Vickie, a tall sturdily built human is as she looks. solid and capable. kto her, the fact that some guy bumped into her and caused the drink to spill down the front of the clothes she wore didn't matter to her, but it seemed to bother her 'friend' who vanished and then did some kind of old-fashioned 'whack the dude across the face' thing.

Vickie had tried to get her friend to be reasonable and then to actually apoligize, but then her friend said 'you fight him for me. he wont know. he just knows it was a female and not what it looked like'

*troubled by this subterfuge, she finally appraoches the meeting place, her regular knife and the vibro knife are strapped on. as the wind cools off the area, Vickie continues closing in. she recalls her past and why she's there. "you're no good as a soldier private. you are discharged. now get off the base, MOVE IT.' she moved and kept on moving and finally arrived here and was content to work as a common labourer, in a place where the name CS wasn't that bad a word, but still. she would still stand out from the long beliefs

*approaching the dock with a heaviness in her heart as she spots the silohette of someone already waiting, and continues to move forward. the 6 foot tall body that shows the bulk of muscles make her look more like a male than a female.
[[ think of Chyna from WWE for an idea of how she looks ]]

'' sorry i'm late, my friend set me up. guess you want to get this over with then, so lets go then'' *her one attempt to NOT fight, for fear that her fighting style might be identified as CS trained.

[tag to you der 3d ]

[Deleted]

His crooked grin turned into a bit of a frown as he saw his opponent approach. His eyes glanced up toward the roofs of the warehouses along the docks and then focused back on the woman. He smiled once again, looking like he was holding back a laugh.

"Funny, I thought you were smaller, and you're way more butch than I would have guessed."

At this he broke out into laughter as he stood up from the crate he was sitting on and flicked the switch on his knife that made it hum to life. The other he left turned off and gripped it by the blade as if he were getting ready to throw it. His eyes glanced up once more to the same spot and he stopped laughing before he looked back down to her.

"You've really got no chance."

Fernandez made that one final cocky remark and as soon as he finished, he threw the blade. The faint glint of the moonlight on the spinning steel of that weapon was the last thing many a man had seen. And he was hoping that this dame would be no different.

OOC: It has already been explained OOC that this man had some skill in knives, and if he had a character sheet, he'd have WP: Knife at around a level 3 proficiency. So his aim is more than likely accurate. So Shiivster wouldn't be able to get away with saying something like "The knife missed her." She'd have to either do something to stop the action before it started, which there is ample opportunity for that to happen, like how often he was glancing up to the roof, or busy speaking. Or she would have to dodge it, or block it, or just let it hit.